Template talk:MobLoads
Let's try to move discussion for things pertaining to this template to here. So far this has been trial-added to one page, a sparkling crimson ruby. So far, a few points have been brought up: Structure of the template I have four display fields currently: Mob, Type (human/trolloc/spirit/etc), Lvl, and Rarity. Mob and Rarity naturally need to stay (with the exact format of Rarity being a subject of discussion over at the Template talk:MobLine page), but I'm not sure how useful the other two are. Lvl especially is often not the prime indicator of a smob's difficulty. I'd like to gather thoughts and opinions on what should be displayed in addition to these two, if anything else. I've thought about things like Innocent status, but what's innocent for one race is a target for another. Another thought perhaps would be to add what Zone the mob loads in, though often the zone names are not all that descriptive, so perhaps the Region (Andor, Spine, Blight, etc) would be more useful. Any thoughts? Russ3Z (talk) 17:38, March 23, 2016 (UTC) Holiday and other temporary mobs I've just added in some logic to exclude mobs that only appear around holidays (Sandy Claws, for instance). Other temporary mobs (such as Moghedien) will still show up, however. I'd like to exclude those as well, but need some ideas on an appropriate category. Moghedien is in the Forsaken category, but so is Moridin, who is a regular load. I suppose temp mobs could be considered "quest mobs" but that category is currently being used in a more general fashion for mobs associated with any quest. This includes quest givers such as town criers, mobs needed to complete a quest such as Rufferto, and so forth. I am potentially open to moving town criers and such to a new "Quest Givers" category or something similar, freeing up "Quest mobs" for temporary and/or one-time mobs. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or other suggestions? Russ3Z (talk) 15:45, March 28, 2016 (UTC) :Hmm, agreed there should be a distinction between holiday mobs and other temporary mobs. Maybe "Event only" for those that are specifically loaded for IMM quests, like Moghedien was?Nivwot (talk) 04:14, March 29, 2016 (UTC) Container loads I've added a page for Mos Teranz, rogue Illuminator. I was thinking about how to account for containers in an automatic submission form, and the command "look in " returns "Nothing" if the container is empty. Could be useful for validating that a load was completely checked? For now I've added empty loads for all containers and sheaths on the smob, but that will get a bit cluttered, considering many smobs have a 0% load in their sheaths, but in some cases (ie the current listed load for Mos), a purse might load something, or it might load empty, so it's important to record the empty loads for rarity percentages.Nivwot (talk) 04:18, March 29, 2016 (UTC) :First, a question. You have 'a small purse' on the table for him twice. Is that a mistake or does he load two purses? :Next, interesting thought about using the "Nothing" return. For this and all following comments, I am not yet sure how to implement the ideas but I will look into it. :One thing along a similar vein I've considered is using the "Sheath" field on item pages, such that if a load is entered, it checks to see which items listed are sheaths/containers and prompts the user for any contents. Additionally, it would be nice to set up a parent/child structure for sheaths/containers in the display table. The idea there is to not need the separate tables for each container that we do now. Instead, the items in the sheath/container are basically linked to that container, maybe so that a collapsible sub-table for each sheath/container is made. :Another, simpler option might just be to add another column to the table that can be used for various notes, but especially to add things like "inside a soft leather pouch" or such. :Lastly, we might also want to consider items that just load in a mob's inventory. It's not really important in terms of checking for everything, but useful info for Thieves with Steal, for instance. Russ3Z (talk) 12:29, March 29, 2016 (UTC) ::Right you are, that was a duplicate purse. The raw data is dumped in the discussion page. ::I did think it would be nice to distinguish between what's worn and what's in their inventory. Either an "inventory" subtable, or perhaps an "equipped" flag in the potential "Notes" column? Nivwot (talk) 05:09, March 30, 2016 (UTC) :::We might go one step further and have a "slot" column in addition to type. An item of a given type (especially containers, for instance) can sometimes be equipped on multiple slots (oilskin bags can be Held, worn on Back or on Belt). That could then be extended to add "Inventory" or "in purse/pouch/sheathname". :::I think if we just did a "Notes" column we'd probably want to not have "Equipped" for most items, since it's redundant for things like armor pieces (although I could see it maybe being useful for sorting, however). Instead, the Notes column could have "in inventory/in /in " and so forth. :::For the present time, the "Notes" column might be the best overall option, at least until I can figure out collapsible subtables and/or other complex structures. It has some advantages when sorting for the moment, as well, since no matter how the table is sorted, you'd still know which item was in which container/sheath. :::Another option might be to still have a "notes" field in the template, but instead of making a column I could have the contents of that field placed beside the item name in the item column, either as superscript or in parentheses. If I have time today I'll do some mock-ups of all of these choices so we can see. :::Finally, I'd like your thoughts on item ordering. I've tended to put items in simple A-Z order by item name, similar to how I do shop loads, whereas I notice you've done it in slot order like it's displayed when examining a mob or looting it. To some extent I can see an advantage in your way, since A-Z can already be achieved by the user if desired by sorting the table, whereas in my method there is no good way to order the items as they would appear on the mob. Still, what do you think? Russ3Z (talk) 12:28, March 30, 2016 (UTC) ::::Ideally I would like it if we were able to display the items as though they were loaded on the smob, ie listing every item in its appropriate slot, and which ones are in inventory, in containers, held, so that's why I tried to list them in order, with inventory-loaded pieces at the bottom. As you say, an "equipped" field alone wouldn't unambiguously describe this, since items can be worn on belts, held, etc. Nivwot (talk) 09:30, March 31, 2016 (UTC) Potential layout changes Based on the above discussion, here are two possible updates to the current layout. The second table removes some redundancy when dealing with normal armor items and such, since a helmet is usually only going to be on the head. However, since items can be imm-loaded onto unusual slots, as well as in inventory/containers/sheaths, having the Notes column (or Slot in the first) does allow us to specify in such cases. One disadvantage I notice with these is that the table may start to become a little cluttered as a result of these additions. However, the additional information it allows may make that worthwhile. Please share any thoughts, concerns, or suggestions here. Russ3Z (talk) 14:22, March 31, 2016 (UTC) :I guess the "Notes" field is a bit more versatile, since as you say, the type of the item almost always matches the slot for the majority of cases. :Though on the subject of redundancy, could we use the first table, but eliminate the "Type" column altogether? With the exception of weapons and special items, slot usually describes type anyways, and the description page of the item will still indicate type. :Appreciate the effort in either case! Nivwot (talk) 08:54, April 1, 2016 (UTC) ::Good point. There could be some slight ambiguity for things that are in a container, or items on a belt/back, but in those cases, as you say, the type should be obvious. As for items being wielded, they're obviously weapons, and it's usually obvious enough whether something is an axe or a sword, though l. blades and m. blades can get mixed up. ::There is precedent anyway, since on the Shops pages I don't list type for those item, either. ::The only other useful thing is for sorting, but again the Slot field can sort just as well in most cases. Is there any case you can think of where "Slot" would not describe everything useful that "Notes" might? The one thing I can think of offhand is, for instance, when an item loads in a locked room/chest/etc. Still, it's easy enough to have "in locked chest" or such in the Slot column, and simply have some additional written notes before or after the table describing how the mob loads x key to y chest, for instance. ::So, 3 choices: Item-Slot-Rarity, Item-Notes-Rarity, or Item-Slot/Notes-Rarity? Russ3Z (talk) 12:55, April 1, 2016 (UTC) :::My vote would be for Item-Slot-Rarity for simplicity, I'd argue that if anything requires extra Notes, it probably belongs in the item's page, or the particular smob's page. Nivwot (talk) 05:44, April 2, 2016 (UTC) ::::Ok, that works for me. I'll try to work on getting this changed over sometime this weekend. I'll need to find a way to allow the MobLoads template to read either the Type field or the (new) Slot field until we can get around to changing all current instances of the MobLine template. Until I can make that change, just keep using it as normal. ::::Also, thanks again for all your contributions. Russ3Z (talk) 06:44, April 2, 2016 (UTC)